tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post963163849141172317..comments2024-03-28T14:20:37.492-07:00Comments on The Mad Padre's Wargames Page: When Wargames Go Wrong: A Cautionary TaleMad Padrehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-20006210840942163842015-11-16T03:09:37.306-08:002015-11-16T03:09:37.306-08:00I've never been in the military but spent many...I've never been in the military but spent many years in martial arts. There, we ask "does it work" all the time, but very few actually bring it to the edge in training, The Dog Brothers came up with the simple solution:to find out if your block works, someone has to hit you full force. <br />Watch this clip and consider: this is how SF troops train tactics. Why is is not how commanders train strategy?<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wR415Vy8Dc<br />Thomas Nissvikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11635793244352536541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-34367098813759633442015-11-09T15:51:15.438-08:002015-11-09T15:51:15.438-08:00http://www.wargaming.co/professional/home.htmhttp://www.wargaming.co/professional/home.htmDiplomatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04154642903216207181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-58580027947663262022015-11-08T18:33:37.720-08:002015-11-08T18:33:37.720-08:00Good point Edwin. I don't know John Curry'...Good point Edwin. I don't know John Curry's books, I should check them out.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-42875088279971374072015-11-08T18:33:07.288-08:002015-11-08T18:33:07.288-08:00Ion, I was also thinking of the Midway story when ...Ion, I was also thinking of the Midway story when I was writing this post. It's an excellent example of how the simulation is brushed aside if it conflicts with a plan that the high command has already bought into. What other examples of this syndrome are there, I wonder?Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-40917418329120270152015-11-08T18:31:23.965-08:002015-11-08T18:31:23.965-08:00Very good points, Tamsin. Guy Bowers makes a sim...Very good points, Tamsin. Guy Bowers makes a similar argument in the latest WSS: http://www.karwansaraypublishers.com/pw/wss/blog/anything-but-pitched-battle/Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-77370576217151954012015-11-08T18:29:43.788-08:002015-11-08T18:29:43.788-08:00True. Military procurement can be like banks -- t...True. Military procurement can be like banks -- too big to fail. Until they fail on the battlefield, which is bad.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-26767040294161247652015-11-08T14:24:22.484-08:002015-11-08T14:24:22.484-08:00Thanks Comrade Moody! That's a great story. ...Thanks Comrade Moody! That's a great story. I think the infantry and combat arms do this sort of training better than others, particularly if they are using MILES gear or equivalent. Observer Controllers can allow one side to do very badly, reset the gear, and let people try it again, hopefully with lessons learned. Perhaps tactical training is more honest than higher level simulation.<br />One of the things I hear a lot from following US military news blogs is senior leaders saying that we excel at tactics but suck at strategy. Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-6713625911519013862015-11-08T08:07:53.923-08:002015-11-08T08:07:53.923-08:00Its a good point. But I think with anything you wi...Its a good point. But I think with anything you will get gamers who will build lists for history and lists to win games regardless of composition,Simon Quinton https://www.blogger.com/profile/18001946192905517180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-84589413875028088202015-11-08T05:48:04.825-08:002015-11-08T05:48:04.825-08:00Thought provoking read, Padre. Thanks for sharing....Thought provoking read, Padre. Thanks for sharing. <br /><br />I'd be interested to know how the Prussians approached it; I imagine they were rather more rigorous about it. Herbert Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04236603020043553029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-77408641564229344982015-11-07T10:07:47.408-08:002015-11-07T10:07:47.408-08:00Nice report. I'd heard something similar mysel...Nice report. I'd heard something similar myself.<br /><br />As a civie I'm always interested to hear how the military does things... though it is must be different playing a game for pedagogical reasons rather than entertainment.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Pete.Pete.https://www.blogger.com/profile/06668389518826053090noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-50940103267669781962015-11-07T10:03:14.014-08:002015-11-07T10:03:14.014-08:00Very interesting read Padre. Haven't heard abo...Very interesting read Padre. Haven't heard about MC'02 before but only recently read about the Austrians conducting manouvres before the war of 1866 where they only reenacted battles they earlier had won against their enemies. The Prussian officers on visit then, afterwards reported back to their general staff their scepticism about that Kind of 'Military reenactment'. We all know who won the next Engagement ;-)Moiterei_1984https://www.blogger.com/profile/13808567081733803572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-72391537719514447822015-11-07T07:02:01.848-08:002015-11-07T07:02:01.848-08:00I was thinking of this while reading an article in...I was thinking of this while reading an article in the spring 2012 issue of the Canadian Army Journal "The Glaucus Factor: Red Teaming as a Means to Nurture Foresight"<br />If actual units were in use then it makes sense to 'refloat' a ship etc. Can't have a whole carrier group sitting around just because they got sunk on day one of the EX after all. But in a TEWT it doesn't help blue force learn much.<br />I always learn something when I get my ass handed to me on the tabletop!Jameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14996350912869829140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-4816230179549992492015-11-07T06:25:25.770-08:002015-11-07T06:25:25.770-08:00It would be interesting to look at some of John Cu...It would be interesting to look at some of John Curry's books on modern developments in professional wargaming to see if the situation has changed. I suspect that one reason that the story of MC 02 is so well known is that it was used as an argument by those pushing for something better that the traditional asymetric red-on-blue game.Diplomatisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04154642903216207181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-54647153033530480132015-11-07T03:42:40.373-08:002015-11-07T03:42:40.373-08:00I am reminded of an anecdote related in Young and ...I am reminded of an anecdote related in Young and Lawford's 'Charge!', in respect of the Battle of Midway. The hJapanese played the thing as a wargame. During the course of a bombing raid on Midway Island, the main carrier squadron - Najumo Force - came under attack from US land-based aircraft. Dice were rolled to determine results: 9 hits; Kaga and Asaki sunk. The director of play, Vice-Admiral Ugaki, arbitrarily amended the score to three hits, which left Kaga sunk but the other carrier with but slight damage.<br /><br />The bad part - the really bad part (though perhaps just as well for the world at large) - was that even this result was cancelled, and the 'ghost' of Kaga carried on to the next phase of the games. <br /><br />Young and Lawford's comment: "Thus the war-gamers' besetting sin, a tendency to fiddle with the rules, invalidated the result of the game - fortunately for the Allies. The game in fact prophesied the Japanese disaster at Midway with considerable accuracy."Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-54473930670936741742015-11-07T01:53:58.761-08:002015-11-07T01:53:58.761-08:00I remember reading about MC'02 several years a...I remember reading about MC'02 several years ago (possibly when it originally leaked, before the Iraq War). The Red Force general definitely came up with some interesting solutions to overcome the technological superiority of Blue Force and it was a shame that the exercise controllers manipulated things so Blue would win. That rendered the exercise pointless.<br /><br />To some extent our wargames have the potential to be a more accurate reflection of what would happen. However, we then tend to skew things to produce a balanced game Where both players/teams can have an enjoyable session. <br /><br />How often do we see games where the scenario reflects actual tactical doctrine, eg assaulting with at least 3 times the number of troops that the defenders have? It might be more accurate to have a battalion assaulting a company position, but not much fun for the outnumbered defender.<br />TamsinPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11759947520907448060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-73057103467114135732015-11-07T00:45:18.432-08:002015-11-07T00:45:18.432-08:00I suspect concerns about morale are only part of t...I suspect concerns about morale are only part of the story. You can't have your billion dollar outfitters told that their product can actually be overwhelmed or bettered by a smaller investment - it's bad for business.Michael Awdryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07049982879661559305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-86885566246105747362015-11-06T21:19:57.720-08:002015-11-06T21:19:57.720-08:00Yeah, sounds like 02 was just a photo op. When I w...Yeah, sounds like 02 was just a photo op. When I was training with the 82nd, we would win half the time in are training. We applied METTC, Mission, Enemy, time, terrain, and civilians on the battlefield. All factors to plane for and that can affect the over all plane.<br />Hell I remember being so embarrassed for a Cav squadron that we where playing green force for. Kept on getting their butts handed to them by the Red Force. So after about half of them got killed in a assault on the town we where patrolling, we decided to ignore are mission of not getting involved and wiped out the attack force and then simulated burning down their camp site.<br />We where instructed not to do that again, but got thumbs ups from are CO for being aggressive and showing the Cav scouts how it's done in the Infantry. <br />commissarmoodyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17453787431294606707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-9038795611183934042015-11-06T20:44:44.649-08:002015-11-06T20:44:44.649-08:00Makes one think, doesn't it? As somebody said ...Makes one think, doesn't it? As somebody said to me once "To assume makes an ass of you and me,"Grenzer Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07294380876807418037noreply@blogger.com