tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post3628871321854412139..comments2024-03-29T02:18:02.207-07:00Comments on The Mad Padre's Wargames Page: Living With A Paradox: Thoughts On Wargaming and Ethics in Light of Jay Arnold's Recent Veteran Wargamer PodcastMad Padrehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-52009959408599361382021-03-16T17:28:33.285-07:002021-03-16T17:28:33.285-07:00I doubt very much you have come from any 'ill ...I doubt very much you have come from any 'ill Judged' point of view. As most of your readers will no doubt subscribe. My children have had a fascination for the computer, and other type of games, such as Pokemon, Halo and Ark- Survival - all of which are probably equal to a 'certain generational' interest in Colonial, ACW and WW2 wargaming - but in different aspect (is all). If you try and deconstruct their own interest, you could argue that 'Pokemon' is endorsing slavery and gladiatorial combat. That 'Halo' endorses Colonialism, and 'Ark-Survival' endorses animal suffering (do your research if unfamiliar). I personally see wargaming as no different to the current 'fashionable' thinking of play. Best wishes and stay safe. Jonny Two Sockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07847985643641679565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-63131961411055595732021-02-25T04:25:53.217-08:002021-02-25T04:25:53.217-08:00Hi, I am from the UK. I do not normally comment on...Hi, I am from the UK. I do not normally comment on posts. I prefer to read quietly in the background. I personally believe, that whatever the viewpoint of the reader, the main point is that people are allowed to voice their view and opinion, and can do so without fear of reproach for doing so. There should be more talking and sharing of opinion, not less. Shouting people down for having a different view is the road to totalitarianism whether that be on the right, or on the left. I personally believe that history is our teacher, our reference book. That we should not judge people from history, but learn from it, so that we can move forward. Wargaming to me is a way of exploring history, learning from it, understanding it. It is not an endorsement of what happened. It is also a hobby, I enjoy it for the artistic, the intellectual, the learning, and the social aspect. It could be argued that all Wargaming is morally wrong. I would argue that to not embrace, learn and accept our past - with all its imperfections is worse. ‘Ostraching’ isn’t the solution. Dealing with it and debating is, and without needless judgement of those who hold different perspectives. I served in the military, and hold no malice to people who wargame eras during which I served, nor should I. It is a matter for them. I also believe that ‘play’ is an important social tool for understanding and developing empathy. Wargaming is play. Best wishes all, and stay safe.Jonny Two Sockshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07847985643641679565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-18938634220691844022021-02-25T03:58:22.294-08:002021-02-25T03:58:22.294-08:00Phil's comments are valid but still leave the ...Phil's comments are valid but still leave the underlying question open. When does reality become history? All can agree that whatever you say or think about Vikings (for example) does not need to have a moral aspect – it’s history. I agree with the “consequences” line of thought but it can lead to some interesting anomalies. The slave trade still has present repercussions but the Crimean War is history. Dates become secondary.<br /><br />As a point of interest then, I’d say that the Crimean War is history but that WW1 is “real”. When will WW1 become history or are Remembrance Day ceremonies ensuring that that will never happen? I don’t know. How much time must pass before our approach to an event becomes “different”?Bankinistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16287871603378750695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-49247718309203143612021-02-25T03:29:09.005-08:002021-02-25T03:29:09.005-08:00If one says: "it's just history and it ha...If one says: "it's just history and it happened, whether it's the holocaust or the slave trade....", that's ok to say about the Vikings or the Romans, but very insensitive to say when there are still real consequences affecting people alive today.Phil Dutréhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607941040736764291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-59513790428152459832021-02-25T03:26:15.439-08:002021-02-25T03:26:15.439-08:00Time heals many wounds. Discussing the impact of t...Time heals many wounds. Discussing the impact of the Vikings on NW Europe is something completely different from discussing the impact of 20th century events. The former happened long enough ago such that it got washed over by other historical events (I don't think anyone can seriously claim still suffering from what happened in the Dark Ages - which is different from those event not having an influence anymore); but 20th century events still have real consequences today, both in the politics of countries and societies, as well in personal life stories. Simply equating them is not the correct approach.Phil Dutréhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607941040736764291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-65560769301279836392021-02-24T22:04:47.234-08:002021-02-24T22:04:47.234-08:00All pretty interesting comments guys. I really don...All pretty interesting comments guys. I really don't think this deeply about the games I play or periods etc. I agree with a lot of what I interpret Bankinista to be saying....I think a lot of people DO worry too much about history .... When I was growing up in the UK in the seventies and eighties, we had "the troubles" in N Ireland anfpd that's basically all related to things that appended three hundred years ago. The Nazis I think people view as "worse" because their atrocities were committed generally on fellow Europeans and at a point in time when Europeans generally felt they had advanced to a more advanced stage if civilisation....and the SS are obviously the epitome of Nazism....but the question holds true, what about the Vikings...should all the liberal, socially aware, social democrats in Scandanavia feel guilt because some if their ancestors raped and pillaged large parts of north Western Europe? In my opinion, no they should not, just like I, being British, don't feel guilty about the empire or bad things that happened in India or Africa or the fact we took over other people's countries etc etc....it's just history and it happened, whether it's the holocaust or the slave trade....or eight year old children being employed in factories and coal mines during the industrial revolution....rrosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07316317334203888350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-69911698129853824142021-02-24T07:56:14.216-08:002021-02-24T07:56:14.216-08:00I believe that I have heard most of the wargames m...I believe that I have heard most of the wargames moralistic arguments except for maybe one and so comments are welcome:<br /><br />At what point does time wipe away moral aspects? Roman soldiers and their foes all had mothers, siblings, wives etc. However, I’ve yet to hear anyone comment on the moral aspects of sacking a town! It’s history. It’s almost possible to make jokes about it! Why are the SS generally considered worse than centuries older troops who had the same behaviours? Is it anything to do with family connections? We probably all had a relative in WW2 and so the SS are “real”. Historic soldiers are less so. It’s a rare individual who can claim a Napoleonic relative, let alone earlier. Reality has become no-more than a history text? Colonial battles can be seen as different. They have a connection to today in black v white and so, again, are “real”.<br /><br />I know some people who refuse to play modern Afghanistan actions. “Real” again? I don’t know.Bankinistahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16287871603378750695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-11323851151511338022021-02-24T07:17:06.151-08:002021-02-24T07:17:06.151-08:00Thanks Ashley. While I confess that I don't e...Thanks Ashley. While I confess that I don't entirely understand the theory you're citing, I think I grasp the general idea. I think at the very least we have to process our emotional responses within some sort of cognitive framewwork. What am I representing an d why am I doing it? The other day I saw a vendor who sells blood spatter markers for skirmish games and I thought - Nope. I have seen some things that I'd rather not revisit, though I accept that they get recreated in the abstract in my games. I know that you do a lot of SF gaming and love big stompy things - is that sort of gaming too fantastic or futuristic to require any kind of ethical or emotional analysis, I wonder?Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-90954966748157887352021-02-24T07:12:43.065-08:002021-02-24T07:12:43.065-08:00Thanks Ross. There is a certain innocence that I...Thanks Ross. There is a certain innocence that I admire about your blog - I see it also in Alan's Duchy of Tragardland or in Conrad Kinch's Joy and Forgetfulness blog. I have thought a lot about the F&I wars myself as a possible gaming subject - I live an hour's drive from the site of Brebeuf's martyrdom ("zee barbecue", as a French Catholic friend calls it) but having read Boyden's The Orenda, that war seems too horrible and real for me to think much about. And yet this morning before my prayer time I was finishing some Wehrmacht figures. I often can't explain myself. <br />Thanks for your comments.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-2876767508620335572021-02-24T07:08:47.442-08:002021-02-24T07:08:47.442-08:00Thanks Iain, great comment. You and I had similar...Thanks Iain, great comment. You and I had similar upbringings, with lots of military service in our family trees. It's interesting how military traditions in a family can work our - most of my colleagues when I was in the army were also positively influenced by a military ancestor of some sort. Even my ACW reenacting friends could often identify a g-g-grandfather who had served in some ACW regiment - for them I suspect the hobby was also a kind of ancestor worship. Even if our family members were touched by war, as your uncle was in in his Sherman, many gamers seem to respect their experience and sacrifice rather than shy away from it.<br />I really liked your description of SYW gaming as "operatic". In confess I am happier with heroic, colourful uniforms and banners and a more formal style - the idea of going back to Helmand or Kandahar feels to close and unpleasant to me at least.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-42895111522488601612021-02-19T10:15:23.242-08:002021-02-19T10:15:23.242-08:00This is a topic that started making me uneasy some...This is a topic that started making me uneasy some 30 or more years ago, alas, I forget what the trigger was but it grew and grew in my mind until a few years ago I started making some conscious decisions about what sort of games I would stage or sign up for at a con.<br /><br />But to go back, my maternal grandfather was a late 19thC pro (RHA) called back from reserves in 1914, served through the war and after emigrating to Canada tried to enlist in '39 but was judged too old so settled for being a Commionaire at a munitions depot. He never gave up his collection of toy soldiers and my mom bought me toy soldiers, prererably painted since her father's were and books on history, esp military history. <br />My paternal granfather signed up in WW1 because he needed a job. He hated it and based on interpreting a few stories suspect that he might have suffered from ptsd. He tried to sign up in 39 so they wouldn't take his sons. He was rejected so my dad volunteered so they wouldn't take his elder brother who had a son. His brother also volunteered though and lies in Normandy. Dad enjoyed the pubs in the UK but nit the fighting in Italy and Holland but still enjoyed watching Combat! and took me to movies like Devil's Brigade and read history but he had no interest in toy soldiers or games. <br />When I was in uniform playing wargames seemed almost natural. It was a small thing that jolted ne into thinking more derply about what I was representing. In preparation for a F&I raid on a settlement game and found myself preparing a schedule of victory points for things like burning cabins, killing and scalping settlers men, women and children, or taking them prisoners whether for torture, trade or slaves and started to question things. Did I really think this should a game? At a con where there might be young folks? Not a demonstration but a game. <br /><br />After years of thinking about the pros and cons my personal choice was to study and be aware but to avoid turning things that I would be ashamed to do in real life, into a game.Ross Mac rmacfa@gmail.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04053555991679802013noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-10200234375301108762021-02-18T02:46:53.823-08:002021-02-18T02:46:53.823-08:00Interesting post and raises lots of thoughts, I gu...Interesting post and raises lots of thoughts, I guess I was taken by the glamour of uniforms as a small child and learnt to read with my dads Purnells history of ww2,he'd had a good war in the RNVR, my mum's older brother lost a leg in a Sherman in northern Europe, her younger brother was in Korea and my granddad was on the Somme,my brother went into the army when I was a kid,so there was a fair bit of military knocking about I guess, I've tried to avoid recent history(post Napoleonic) even though my nephews bullied me into bolt action, colonial wars have little interest. The civil wars in Britain also don't seem as current as the ACW which was pretty recent, my granddad was in his mid 40s when he was in the trenches so he was born not long after the ACW finished, it unfortunately seems like unfinished business. I am happiest moving gayley coloured 16th century troops around in an operatic manner, in Machiavelli's Italy and at the time Britain was a marginal country hanging on the edge of Europe, any resemblance to now is purely accidental!<br />Best Iain caveadsum1471https://www.blogger.com/profile/02174163740406928172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-25172729802704034682021-02-17T15:37:38.663-08:002021-02-17T15:37:38.663-08:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Alandrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05564958616469735697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-64563295157675317072021-02-17T09:58:57.521-08:002021-02-17T09:58:57.521-08:00I totally get that. Watching a combined arms brig...I totally get that. Watching a combined arms brigade group going through its paces on exercise, with tanks racing forward, is absolutely exhilarating, like listening to a magnificent symphony. Listening to the Observer Controllers' casualty assessments afterwards, was sobering but somewhat unreal. My dad was a veteran of NW Europe and Korea. I am sure he had some demons, you could tell that, but he also liked to say that he had good wars. He and his friends were fit and young, and they were undefeated. Why wouldn't they have felt pride and pleasure in some (or as you say, even much) of what they saw and did?Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-63266340567641801602021-02-17T09:54:45.472-08:002021-02-17T09:54:45.472-08:00Thanks so much. Indeed, a polite discussion is pr...Thanks so much. Indeed, a polite discussion is probably all we can or should ask of one another.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-5238933236406979892021-02-17T09:53:52.881-08:002021-02-17T09:53:52.881-08:00Hello Ion: as always I am grateful for your thoug...Hello Ion: as always I am grateful for your thoughtfulness. <br />I really like your point about narrative and storytelling. It's surely no coincidence that some of western culture's most ancient and famous stories are about war. When I was a young teen and first read Homer's Iliad (I was a weird kid), I was riveted but also a little sickened about the graphic description of war - spears passing through mouths and that sort of thing. Perhaps every generation needs to tell its own stories, though if you read enough memoirs or watch enough films, you quickly recognize the tropes and cliches repeating across the centuries. As for the American Civil War, I think it's part of an ongoing story and even an ongoing conflict that never ended - the stories of the Tuskegee airmen are so vital because they also fought against entrenched racism in US society that survived after Lee surrendered. That War still goes on socially and politically, and as gamers, I think we have to at least recognize that, though I suppose there are innumerable battle and regimental histories that can be read (and played) totally in isolation.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-4777675892453814922021-02-17T09:47:01.177-08:002021-02-17T09:47:01.177-08:00Hi Jeremy: Thank you for your heartfelt response....Hi Jeremy: Thank you for your heartfelt response. I am not sure my point came from an ill-informed view of history (I have five university degrees) nor did it come from a desire to change the hobby or leave it. I do agree with you that war-games can teach us much about history without necessarily re-writing it, but I would still argue that there is something aesthetic about the hobby - why else would we play it if there wasn't something about it that we enjoyed? Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-24625026580796634012021-02-17T09:42:22.558-08:002021-02-17T09:42:22.558-08:00Thanks Phil, I appreciate that view from a Europea...Thanks Phil, I appreciate that view from a European tradition. I follow quite a few European warmers via their blogs and social media, but never thought about how their gaming is an imported sub-culture. Certainly if you look at the commercial print war-games that started coming out in the late 1960s from companies like Avalon Hill, they were all WW2-centric. The same might be said of plastic miniatures and models from companies like Airfix and Matchbox, though toy soldier gaming goes back to at least the 1800s as you note. I've noted your gaming blogs and look forward to following them.Mad Padrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00410143683610813671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-24468853104034580982021-02-17T03:54:52.583-08:002021-02-17T03:54:52.583-08:00"My WW2 Germans are not SS." I think you..."My WW2 Germans are not SS." I think you've ably illustrated your post.Jeremy Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12250118143994161913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-26230312014658114612021-02-17T03:04:24.965-08:002021-02-17T03:04:24.965-08:00Comment from a retired mental health professional,...Comment from a retired mental health professional, putting her professional hat on.<br /><br />For me, the significant clue in these types of discussions is the lack of a framework to understand the emotional response generated by experiencing unwanted emotional dissonance triggered by an event.<br /><br />The driver of this is called Thought-Action-Fusion, which can be summed up as, if I think bad thoughts, then bad things will happen that I'm responsible for. It's part of the magical thinking mechanism that's driven by heuristic pattern analysis that evolved to keep us alive on the plains of the Serengeti a 100,000 years ago and more.<br /><br />In one of those rare occurrences, The Guardian even has a good introductory article that deals with communication:<br /><br />https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/16/how-to-have-better-arguments-social-media-politics-conflict Ashleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13666947574653683678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-52411165250283966792021-02-17T01:26:45.320-08:002021-02-17T01:26:45.320-08:00Hello Michael, thanks for this post. It uncannily ...Hello Michael, thanks for this post. It uncannily echoes my thoughts, although there is no long standing military tradition in my family, my father was very proud of his service, and I was brought up with the History of the British Empire magazine, and war movies depicting plucky Brits. <br /><br />At various levels I have often felt a degree of discomfort playing some games rather than others. I steadfastly refuse to play colonial period games, having walked the battlefields in KwaZulu Natal with a Zulu guide, and find ACW 'uncomfortable'. My WW2 Germans are not SS. <br /><br />What bothers me though, are not so much the figures deployed on the table, but the justifications and tortuous thought processes some folk adopt to avoid confronting any moral dimension in the hobby. There are even examples in the responses to this post. So thanks for airing the wargames room.Doughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13866756432233805848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-19142098714422448752021-02-17T01:18:43.770-08:002021-02-17T01:18:43.770-08:00Intresting points. While I'm at the core a fa...Intresting points. While I'm at the core a fantasy gamer - somehow it seems less "wrong" in this article tendens, to kill masses of Orcs to bowfire just feels different.<br /><br />Now, we had the same "history of crime" affair as recent as last year here in Belgium, as suddenly a left wing action group decided that all statues of former king Leopold 2 had to be removed for his crimes in the Congo. Bit of a quick change in mentality btw, 10 odd years ago he was still a national hero and we even had the Perry's sculpt a figure of him for a Crisis show entry model.<br /><br />Personally, I always thought we should never forget even the war crimes, in order for next generation to learn from it, even though some tend to take those sorts of figures like a role-model instead... but how would the world develop and schools work if for example every reference to that small austrian ruler of Germany was abolished out of history?Tomsche69https://www.blogger.com/profile/17175996032103612678noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-80342177170630860932021-02-17T01:09:17.348-08:002021-02-17T01:09:17.348-08:00Thanks for such a thoughtful and well-written post...Thanks for such a thoughtful and well-written post. I think your willingness to think about these issues and consider different points of view is incredibly important. The question is too big, to varied, and too personal to ever reach a right or wrong answer, instead we just need to continue having a polite discussion. joe5mchttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13381588340232280771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-1561014480930925812021-02-16T20:04:52.998-08:002021-02-16T20:04:52.998-08:00The dichotomy of the game is not something to fear...The dichotomy of the game is not something to fear. War itself is that way. The best times of my life, some of my fondest memories, are of war. And also the worst. But the worst is not very much of it and the best was a great deal. <br /><br />Seeing an image of tanks racing across the desert, the dust flying behind, the blast wave as they fire, is exhilarating. Even more so seeing it in real life. War is a spectacular endeavor, if you can survive it, both physically and mentally. In gaming it should not be strange that, without the pain and loss, you are left with the spectacle and the challenge and the "glory". AHunthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08148857673973402238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6519665561624985779.post-86771658484829316822021-02-16T15:55:26.017-08:002021-02-16T15:55:26.017-08:00Hi Michael -
There's a lot of meat and potatoe...Hi Michael -<br />There's a lot of meat and potatoes in your posting - and something I have off-and-on been uneasy about in my war gaming. In a way, I'd like to respond point-by-point to what you have said, but methinks that would be tiresome to anyone who essayed to read it!<br /><br />My own 'justification' or 'rationalisation' is that for mine, war is rich source of stories. Perhaps that is why I write my AAR and campaign narratives the way I do. There are all sorts of ways of telling stories, to oneself, or to others. But on balance my wars and battles really are sanitised versions of what they purport to ... tell (I was about to say 'represent', but perhaps that is to overstate the matter). <br /><br />I have also a habit of rooting for the underdog - which, from a purely 'war' point of view, the Confederacy was. But the Confederate political leadership, bloody-minded and foolish, made themselves, and their compatriots, into underdogs. I still believe the likes of R.E. Lee and T.J. Jackson were honourable men, whatever one thinks of Jeff Davis.<br /><br />That sympathy for the underdog extends to colonial warfare - a field of wargaming to which I have only recently taken on. Even then, I go the Imagi-Nations route, thinly disguising the contending nations, and tending towards 'great power' conflicts. That hasn't stopped my joining a friend's project set in a vaguely east African region, peopled by the mButu, led by a canny chief who is prepared to live and let live, but apt to go all militant when crossed, as the Azeitonian colonists have already discovered, to their cost, on two occasions. <br /><br />I don't 'do' Waffen-SS as such, but if a battle calls for such-like ilk, then the troops on the table, Wehrmacht most of the time, will be SS for this scenario. Nor do I 'do' casualty figures. But against that, in rule sets that used figure removal for casualties, I liked to leave them where they fell. The battlefields did take on a stricken look towards the close of the action, and one could also trace afterwards where the heaviest fighting took place.<br /><br />I don't come from a military family at all. A few soldiers appear here and there through family history, including my eldest nephew, but there was no real military thread. I tend to think of myself as a pacifist, as I believe H.G. Wells was, holding the view that, as an instrument of policy, war passed its use-by date somewhere between 1789 and 1815. <br /><br />Let the objectors object - but let them leave us to our story-making. Conflict is the stuff of stories; absent conflict, you have mere narrative - at best.<br />Cheers,<br />Ion<br />Archduke Piccolohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15533325665451889661noreply@blogger.com